The man facing arson charges in connection with last year’s catastrophic Palisades fire contradicted investigators’ evidence with his statements and ranted when the blaze was brought up as he was questioned and brought back to the fire scene in the weeks after it started, a federal agent testified Thursday.
Matthew Beals, a special agent with the Bureau Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, recalled his interview with Jonathan Rinderknecht, 30, who faces several charges in connection with the Jan. 1 2025 Lachman fire, which authorities say smoldered underground before becoming the Palisades fire roughly a week later. The government rested its case Thursday in the federal trial in Los Angeles.
Beals and Los Angeles police Det. Nellie Knight interviewed Rinderknecht on Jan. 24, 2025, after his phone location was known to investigators and the origin areas for the fire had been established. The ATF had tried unsuccessfully to contact him via phone, so the special agent and detective went to Rinderknecht’s apartment with search warrants.
“He seemed a little frazzled, but otherwise polite. Not combative or anything like that, but just a little frazzled,” Beals said of his initial impression of the defendant.
The investigators told him they were investigating a fire. Rinderknecht explained his connection to the Palisades neighborhood, what he was doing that night and said that he had not seen fireworks, a statement he would repeat to authorities several times, Beals said.
As the interview continued, Rinderknecht asked why he was being interrogated and when the fire was brought up, he became agitated, physically withdrew and wanted to know why they were asking such specific questions, Beals testified. During the eight and a half hour interview, which included lunch and a visit to the Hidden Buddha clearing in the Pacific Palisades where investigators say the Lachman fire began, Rinderknecht did not show the same frustration he did regarding the fire, in regards to other topics, even personal ones Beals said.
“The only time he got like a little twitch in his face, was when we talked about the fire. The only time I could see the jugular on the side of his neck was when we talked about the fire,” Beals said.
“I spent two and a half years there, it’s nostalgic for me…” Rinderknecht said in the interview, recalling how emotions came back to him on New Year’s Eve as he found himself dropping off an Uber passenger in the Pacific Palisades. He decided to call his friend, whom he used to live with up there, he told investigators in an audio clip of the interview played in court.
Rinderknecht explained to the investigators where on the hill he was using a map and a photo of the area and told them it had been quiet on the hill that night and he had heard “zero fireworks”.
Rinderknecht brought up politics unprompted during the conversation, mentioning support for Donald Trump in the Palisades, climate change and a neighbor in the Palisades who was convinced someone was setting fires up there.
“… people get, you know, depressed and kind of give up, and if this was the case maybe they want the world to burn down…” Rinderknecht said in the recorded interview.
Beals testified that Rinderknecht initially did not want to visit the Palisades with investigators, telling them that there was no point and becoming more emotional, starting to cry and feeling defeated and starting to talk about the French Revolution, money dividing people, trying to re-establish power balance in society and saying “so we can go after every fire and determine what we think is a potential cause but at the end of the day what does that change?”, according to testimony from Beals and recordings played in court.
Rinderknecht ultimately agreed to visit the Hidden Buddha hillside, if he could be compensated for turning down work in order to go, though later investigators found out they were not permitted to do so and he was not paid for his time, Beals testified.
Beals and Knight took Rinderknecht to lunch in Santa Monica and then to the scene of the fire in the Palisades, where he recounted his time on the hill on New Year’s Eve and retraced his steps with investigators, showing them where he was when he called 911 and spotted fire.
He told investigators he sat down on the Hidden Buddha feature, an empty utility stump where people placed Buddha figurines, and later walked down the hill. He showed investigators specific areas where he walked, called 911 and first spotted the fire.
“That was inconsistent with the cell phone data in terms of the attempts to call 911 and the locations of those calls,” Beals said.
Prosecutors presented a map of the area where the Lachman fire began, marked where Rinderknecht’s cell phone data showed his phone versus where he indicated to investigators he had been when he dialed 911.
Based on location data, by the time Rinderknecht’s phone was at a secondary viewpoint below the Hidden Buddha clearing, the Lachman fire was visible on a UCSD trail cam five miles away, Beals testified.
When he spotted the fire, he initially just noticed that there was light, but his mind did not immediately go to thinking there was a fire, Rinderknecht told investigators. When he realized there was a fire, he attempted to call 911 and went “rushing down to keep trying to call them” when his calls did not initially go through, due to poor cell service.
Phone data showed that he called 911 when he was near what investigators later determined was the origin point of the fire, but told investigators that he was at a different area, Beals said.
Roughly seven hours into the interview, Beals and Knight revealed to Rinderknecht that they knew there were cameras on a water tower above the clearing and that his phone data was collected when he called 911, which was inconsistent with his statements, Beals testified. He did not amend any of his statements. He did add that he may have smoked a cigarette, Beals said.
“I’m asking you what you used to light the cigarette and you can’t remember?” Beals said in a recording of the interview.
“I’ve had so many lighters in my life, I don’t know which one,” Rinderknecht says in the recording.
Rinderknecht was upset and confrontational and asking why they had so many questions, Beals testified. He also did not recall the type of cigarettes he had been smoking. He said that he had smoked one or two cigarettes and told investigators that he typically crushed or threw his cigarettes, but that he didn’t think he would have thrown it.
“I’m conscious of things like that. I wouldn’t have thrown it, no,” Rinderknecht said.
Beals testified that the only functioning lighter found on Rinderknecht’s person, in his car or in his apartment was a long-handled green BIC lighter, which investigators previously testified is what they believe started the Lachman fire.
When Knight asked Rinderknecht why someone may have started a fire in the Palisades, he answered that if someone was targeting the area, it might be because of anger that people have their own road to “paradise” while others are basically enslaved and mentioned “the violence that happened with that CEO recently…,” according to testimony and recordings.
During cross-examination, Rinderknecht’s defense attorney, Steve Haney, highlighted the lack of scene security after the Lachman fire, investigators lying to Rinderknecht during questioning and Rinderknecht’s cooperation with the interview, as well as Rinderknecht calling 911 and not attempting to flee the scene of the fire.
“Isn’t it true that if he didn’t want to call attention to himself, he didn’t have to call 911 17 times?” Haney asked.